The Stuff I Like, the Stuff You Like
There is this post on Jtor which basically copies from some other site (NSFW?) which copies from 2ch about that there are two types of anime otaku, and what they look for in an anime. And then there’s a response from a Japanese site which talks about the posts on Jtor and SC. It’s a weird circle of communication in which I’m hoping will make into a full circle yet again by having somebody (me?) posting on Jtor to discuss this.
But before I (or hopefully someone else) do that, maybe we can discover something more substantive about the nature of the Western anime fan-beast, in contrast with the Japanese variety. Let me reproduce the list of criteria here–
Type A
- A person who simply enjoys “anime.”
- Is proud of Japan’s anime.
- Evaluates anime based on direction, voice acting, art, etc.
- Hates shallow anime with no real content.
- [Plot] emphasis >>>>> Moe anime.
- A recent example would Higashi no Eden. Fans of anime who like Lain or Ghost in the Shell would probably be this kind.
Type B
- A person who simply enjoys “characters.”
- Will watch an anime if it includes cute or beautiful characters.
- Doesn’t care if story is awful, as long as the characters are of interest.
- Evaluates anime based on which seiyuu are in it and what the characters look like.
- Loves moe elements. Doesn’t like complex anime.
- The otaku the media picks up on are usually this kind.
- Doesn’t know that much about anime and so is often criticized by Type A otaku.
- However, they make much better customers than the more discerning Type A otaku.
- People who like K-ON!, Queen’s Blade, Strike Witches and so on would be in this class.
- Recently there has been a huge increase in anime targeted at Type B otaku.
Seems pretty simple, besides the one change I made. However the picture in the west is cloudy because anime fandom is significantly more insular and strongly branded than in Japan, I believe. During the blooming years, there were people who consumed anime just because it was anime. ADV’s now infamous slogan (“STRAIGHT FROM JAPAN!”) pretty much hits it on the spot. And after all there are no such things as a Japanese weeaboo.
But even if we discount the “Cool Japan” influence, I am sure there are still a lot of people who are interested in anime and manga, because they tell very different stories, targeted to teenagers and young adults, than what is available in the west (especially in American, I believe). The boom of manga in big box bookstores of America is evidence enough.
It’s much the same in Japan, I suppose, that there is a bundling of two philosophically different types of anime fans. In some ways the 2ch distinction is half-trolling, so we can’t take it too seriously; but all good trolls incorporate at least a modicum of truth in their statements, so let’s look at that. In interest of length let me just bullet them–I’m going to just basically combine what is said for type A and type B to draw some statements that are more universal.
- Persistent characterization is content that is often missing in western works for young adults and teens in the west, but it is a strong draw of manga and anime.
- Cuteness is not an aesthetic cherished by western culture, let alone popular media, past the pre-teen segment. In contrast, Japan is all about the cute (and later on expanded by moe and related stuff).
- Fans evaluate anime usually on bifurcated layers–conceptual and superficial. The best example of this is Ponyo, which is conceptually average but visually jaw-dropping awesome. For some, a strong plot is a must-have (why are battle manga and things going to Koushien becoming gag tropes?), others care more about theme, production value, aesthetics, and context.
It is probably fair to say that most Western fans operate within these spaces, at least in my own experience over the past decade or so. It’s a little more perplexing trying to apply these principles to explain the appeal to me of four shows this season. So lets.
Seikon no Qwaser – actually, this entire class of violent and pornographic anime, dating back from the 80s and onward, is something that made anime both world-famous yet hard to approach. It also slowed anime’s gain in mainstream from the get go, since “violence and porn” was what some early adapters of the west thought of Japanese animation well into the late 90s. It probably doesn’t fit with type A or type B fans per se, but it does for type C fans, who embraced anime because it was simply different, controversial, and clearly cartoons not for kids (C is for “Cool Japan” types). At the same time, these sorts of anime also embodies other characteristics found in less violent and sexualized works, such as distinct characterization of its leads, fantastic settings, or outright regurgitation of some western lore for superficial purposes. Vampire Hunter D comes to mind, yeah? As a character driven mystery with action and shocking scenes, colored by an European-inspire set of aesthetics, I think Qwaser fits the bill pretty well superficially. To that end, we can think about Queen’s Blade, D, Qwaser, and others like them as thin on plot (although at times thick on intrigue).
So Ra No Wo To – Sora no Oto is more a hybrid creation than what it lets on. This is a good beginning to explain its uniquely Japanese appeal. It is truly authentic “Japanese” if you will, rather than simply what is known as weird or edgy or exotic. On the other hand, the weird, edgy and exotic is attention-grabbing, and an anime about nothing much except its healing properties (albeit in a weird and exotic setting) is probably less so. Think to yourself: will a mainstream audience enjoy this show? They will probably be bored to death first. But just like Qwaser, Soranowoto also exhibits an overt attempt at characterization and a distinct visual appeal, like many other anime. To use a different example, 2ch’s type A otaku might have a less difficult time agreeing with type B otaku on Denno Coil’s appeal, except that type B people won’t find it visually absorbing or nitpick at the theme, and type A people will grumble about the plot, or stupid kids, or something along those lines. In other words, it has some objective merit on its own. Likewise, the setting and production value in Soranowoto are remarkable to say the least…and the jury is out for the rest of the show, as we are only 3 episodes in.
Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu – As with a large number of manga/light novel turned anime in the past decade, there is a concerted effort from manga creators to appeal to a large number of readers. This is particularly true with works from competitively circulated serialized magazines, where success depends on amassing as many type A and type B fans. Due to the nature of Japanese TV anime, the end result tends to shift a tad more towards type B than type A, but we can see that concerted effort in Bakatest regardless. Take a tried-and-true formula of high school battle with virtual avatars, add in your tropes, mixed up with theatrics and comedy, and the end result is something different yet so familiar. The mix-a-trope description isn’t an entirely fair thing to call any anime (even if anime tends to be very trope-focused), but somewhere in that concoction is a very plot-driven narrative, and that’s what most type A fans crave.
Hanamaru Yochien – This is an anime made in the disguise of a for-the-family comedy. In reality it is laced with that controversial aspect–the eroticism of child-like characters. Of course, most of the time in any anime, the notion of that knowledge is just tongue-in-cheek. In Hanamaru’s case, it goes nowhere even that far; perhaps just a step beyond typical toilet humor. The appeal of Hanamaru, for the most part, is simple but strong characterization coupled with appropriate humor. Much like a similar and well-heralded comedy Azumanga Daioh, the “in the know” factor adds a humorous, albeit darker edge to the jokes. As one would expect, the rest of the show’s production and designs help to accentuates these elements in the story. Admittedly that alone may not be enough for most type A audience; at a glance it is an anime with childish humor. But for those who may enjoy either the aesthetics or the hidden edge to the jokes, there is something to be enjoyed. That said, I’m not sure that characteristic can be fairly associated with type A or type B otaku.
You get the idea. It’s like calling Psgels a type A and Kurogane a type B. But in reality they’re not that different.
I just so happen to be Blood Type AB, annnnnd I’m an Anime-Blogger! Pretty snazzy, huh? =D
The way I like to compare the two groups: the first group are people that approach anime as they would approach any other storytelling medium, while the second group are Azuma’s database animals.
These groups also vary somewhat by ‘generation,’ at least when it comes to your group C. In my experience group C fans– the ones who made Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, and Evangelion huge hits in the ’90s shortly before DBZ/Sailor Moon/Pokemon –got into it older. I also find that they tend to be more across-the-board geeks who are into some of the older classes of geekdom (like sci-fi/fantasy novels, tabletop gaming, etc).
Emphasis on “tend,” of course, but fans who got in at DBZ/Sailor Moon (like me) tend to have gotten into anime more as its own thing than as an extension of sci-fi fandom, and the generation after THAT includes that vast number of fans we don’t tend to hear from– casual anime fans who watch (and buy) Bleach, Naruto, etc, but don’t tend to spend time on anime forums and blogs and the like.
Just to throw an extra and unnecessary twist in things =P
After 5 years forced to study boring literature just so I can get a degree related to linguistics and language teaching/translation (and because I didn’t want to drop out after so many years), I think it’s understandable I should be of type B, which I consider myself.
Of course, I noticed you would probably inscribe yourself as type A (because it’s clear you are praising them), so while I do consider myseof of type B, I have objections to some of the features you assume B to possess. For example, you think A types are more conscious of Japanese culture than B types. Well, I don’t know how far I understand Japanese cultured having never lived there, but I can speak Japanese so that should be something.
But you know, after precisely 5 years, I’ve grown tired of all that has to do with culture (I mean as an institution). It’s posh, elitist and very boring. In the anime milieu it’s not different.
Also, it would be too long to comment, but there’s often a sense of elitism by people of type A, something I’ve also found in high-brow culture, in the sense of “high-brow, related to the academia cultulre”, which in my opinion means removing any element that is popular from their “canon”, for the reason of it being popular rather than because they feel there’s any fault in it. Something like “I don’t like K-ON because there’s 50,000 westerners watching it while I like X show because only very few people know about it”. You can also rephrase it as “I don’t like the Lord of the Rings because it’s popular so I like Finnegans Wake because nobody likes it”. After all, people didn’t go writing on walls “Finnegan lives”, but rather “Frodo lives”
For example, while there is no problem for people with Higashi no Eden having a crazy bitch cutting people’s “Johnnies” (i.e. sexual content), they will judge right away many other shows that have a more up-beat mood not by other qualities it may have or lack, but rather by whether it shows fanservice elements or not (sexual content). That doesn’t say much about how they often judge the deepness of shows.
Also, and related to this, there’s the notion of deepness, which is often a matter of what this milieu sets as ideal -it has a lot in common with high-brow literature, actually-. By way of example, anything dark (depressive, violent, with political intent, etc) will be judged to be “deeper” than less serious stuff (e.g. lovecom), even if a more serious show can have a shallow plot and a more happy show can deal in a complex way with, for example, personal relationships or emotions. But since to deterine deepness not only an extensive analysis would be required, but it’s also a cultural, unstable element, we have that in most areas -literature, anime, movies, etc-, “fun, upbeat, happy” is shallow, “depressive, dark” stuff (e.g. war, things having to do with politics, psychological stuff, etc) are deemed to be deeper.
One example in literature is that plays having a happy ending and are entertaining are almost always considered to be of bad quality while plays with a very unpleasant tone (e.g. Look back in anger) are praised. Humor is looked down upon unless it’s ironical -which means it’s bitter-. Even reminds me a little of religions, shunning from fun happy stuff.
Another example where you give more status to “plot” than “characterization” is that even in high-brow literature there are works like “Waiting for Godot” with no plot whatsoever (Nothing happens. Twice) so very often such distinctions cannot be mantained.
Anyway, it reminds me a lot of the fad here in Spain to call everything that you consider to be “good” as “European”. It doesn’t even mean it has something related to the rest Europe (e.g. the Spanish PM said he wants a European education when the Spanish system has more to do with the US system). He meant by European that it would be “more ideal education”, rather than implying it would be the same as France or Poland. This would be something like that. “Deep” means “European”. It doesn’t have to mean it’s actually that deep -whatever that is-, just as something may not be that “European”. It’s a word used to abscribe a particular show to A, B… N category, each category being given a social status.
Precisely since people who like high-brow stuff tend to be more active to gain hegemony, it’s normal that people with A (Alpha?) tendencies should have more promience and create this kind of discourse, thus giving their shows a higher status than “our” shows. Although of course, such clear-cut categories don’t actually hold.
I’m also Type AB (and Anime Blogger!) I enjoy the same types of anime for the same reasons as both the A and B types. I like Eden of the East, K-ON!, Naruto, Evangelion, Pokemon, Ghibli movies, and others in between.
You’re right that the types of anime fans differ between Japan and the West. I recently wrote a post about how many types of anime fans I could list (came up with about 30 something). There definitely has been an increase in Type B anime, but as long as good ones are still being made, I can’t complain too much.
A wide variety of engaging responses! I am happy. Time to reply.
@Jesus159159159: you are correct about one thing at least–most fans are bit of both.
@jpmeyer: I sort of agree and disagree, because you can be Azuma’s DB animal both ways. But the original 2ch thing is suppose to provoke that kind of a perspective. It’s a troll.
I have a friend who consumes a lot of shounen manga, because he enjoys all those 5-chapters-long fight scenes with 10 people narrating and commenting on 2 people’s problems, and that sort of tropes. But he can’t stand moe usually.
@gia: I know what you’re saying. But I think all three types can apply to the average Bleach or Naruto fanboys and fangirls. Those who stay at that level and never advance into a “fan” probably are like those kids who grew up liking the Turtles but didn’t get into gaming or comic books once they got older. They’re in because of the place in life they are, and they are attracted to Naruto or whatever because of that “Cool Japan” factor, even if it isn’t outright something Japanese as much as it is something different and popular.
@Sergei: I am very much a type B person, and if you think I praise A and not B that might be because originally it was a troll as I copy and pasted the text.
I like a lot of anime regardless if they cater to type A or type B. I think a classical education tend to equip students to appreciate elements like narrative style, plot, themes and characterization. And almost everyone who went to high school in a first-world, English-speaking country probably had a classical education. Turning to anime, what makes anime an exciting and different medium compared to western animation or live action is a whole package of things that not only include those canonical elements I mentioned above that are different, but also more of the Avant-garde (eg., superflat? moe?) and stuff that isn’t quite even artistically evaluable (eg., how much it panders to an audience, the production process, etc). How do type A people evaluate this?
To draw another conclusion (and partly based on what JP is saying above), basically the stuff type B people like is what makes anime actually worthy of notice. Why watch anime when there are dozens of perfectly type-A-catering live action TV shows in America? Maybe that is the type A dilemma.
@Yumeka: two ABs! Thank you for the note. And yes I did read your post on the long list of fan types. It felt like a long time ago lol.
http://animeyume.com/blog/2009/12/05/how-many-types-of-anime-fans-can-you-name/
Right?
OKAY, YOU GOT ME!!! I’M A TYPE O!!! HA HAAAAAAAH!!!… yea =( *leaves with the crickets*
Funny how this is starting to resemble “Blood type personalities” here…. haha.
When I first read that on Sankaku (Yes, I visit quite frequently despite it being universally disparaged), I thought there really is a grain of truth in it, and yet it isn’t absolutely correct at all. I’m not really a fan of pigeonholing things in a certain “framework”… which is why I have never done posts like “How do you know you are an otaku?” or “What type of otaku you are?”.
Anyways, I digress… back to the topic. I guess I will just go along with the flow and say that I am a type AB too!
I enjoy both “anime” and “characters”. I’ve watched awful shows with no story just for the characters (actually, for the voice actresses *coughKanokoncough*), although I still hate shallow anime with no real content. While I love moe elements, I do like watching complex shows, like GITS and EVA too. Lastly I evaluate anime in the order of seiyuu performances, direction and storytelling, character development and finally art and music.
I am pretty sure a lot of the other older animebloggers are an amalgamation of both types too, since outside Japan, people tend to sample nearly everything they can get thanks to the Internet *coughcough*.
Minor correction: BakaTest is based on a series of light novels–not manga.
@Hinagiku: noted, thanks for the assist.
@Kurogane: you have no need to defend your categorically perfect type B nature, lol. The thing is, I share many of your concerns (you think Kanokon is bad? Try Tsuyokiss). I just go above and beyond that.
Maybe I really should blog more types of anime. I somehow find the only ones I actually ever feel to blog about on a consistent basis are Type B ones.
I’m with Kurogane in that despite the small truths in the two groups, I largely disregarded the list’s pigeonholing. Simplifying something that doesn’t seem anywhere near simple is kind of :v
@TheBigN: I don’t know about you, but that list brings some kind of revelation in the sense that it makes me realize that there is such a trend, and yet I would never divide otaku in two ways like that. You could look at it as a pigeonhole, but I see it as a simple model. It doesn’t circumscribe reality but suggests something more fundamental.
@Kurogane: I rarely hear you talk about anything else, yeah. Well it’s up to you :p
I see the same thing, but at the same time, I don’t want to feel like “that’s it?” in terms of the basics as to what types of anime fans are there. It may be just me wanting it to be “more” than it is.
There’s another flavor of Type-A — for whom character development can be as important as plot. Thus you can have a Type-A who likes, say, Strike witches for the character-driven episodes near the center of the series or some of the absurd comedy (Erica). No, really. Maybe Aria is a better example.
@TheBigN: I’m not sure how you feel factors into the truth of the matter. I mean, isn’t what I am doing exactly what you feel you should do? :p
@Dm: I think I took that into account implicitly. Character development is very much a type A sort of thing. I believe this is why the original list has the word in quotes.
…but it’s in quotes in the type-B list?
I raised my comment because, well, I’m clearly Type-A (your list of “Lain and Ghost in the Shell” could have been tailor-made for me). But Strike Witches grew on me, not because of the moe, but because of the elegiac iyashikei of the Sanya-centric episode followed by Minne’s flashback (it’s interesting that music formed a key part of both those episodes).
Or take the plotlessness of Aria or Yokohama Kaidashi Kikyou. Are those for “Type-A” fans or “Type-B”? Or do we need a Type-A’ for the Type-A Ariaphiles?
Yes, it’s on the B list. Because “WAIFU” is not so much a love for character development as much for character. And WAIFU is obv obv obv a type B thing. Do you see the difference between “I love Ruri because of her character development” and “I love Ruri’s character development”?
Also, iyashikei is a type B sort of thing. I don’t think you’re “clearly” type A at all.
I guess one thing I want to make clear is that the original list is a troll. The shows they listed are samples and obviously you can be type A and like K-ON (which is something I’d argue and tried to) and you can be type B and like Ghost in the Shell (Tachikoma is moe I say)!
The other thing I want to say is that you are onto something, dm, that there is a dissonance for attachment based on liking a show for its totality versus its parts. I mean, there’s no logical reason to dismiss someone who likes a show for its, for example, depiction of a futuristic world, versus someone who likes a show because one of the character is very cute. That is what Sergei is speaking about, I think. What you suggest is that it’s okay to like Ghost in the Shell because of a variety of pluses in an objective look at that film, but it’s not okay to like Kanokon simply because you appreciate the genre trope subversion in Kanokon, despite what ills it presents. Or it is “type B” behavior to watch & enjoy Asura Cryin’ because Haruka Tomatsu have several moving performances in a few scenes of that show.
Your assessment of Seikon no Qwaser is pretty intriguing. I had never thought of Queen’s Blade and similar shows as kin to the bloody, titillating anime of the 80s, but now that you mention it, it makes sense. As much as I see people disparage “moe shit,” it’s not like after 2000 there was a complete and total shift. These things take time.
As I see it, the moe shift (LOL) was long in the making. And there isn’t really anything wrong with it per se either. It’s just how times have changed.
The thing with Qwaser that reminded me the 80s stuff is how it took itself seriously in terms of its production and direction (again, see Mnemosyne). Queen’s Blade, however, did not at all. That was mostly just a fanservice vehicle which is true to the source material (ie. a Pen-and-Paper RPG game of sorts, based on character books you’d buy and play). I don’t know anyone who seriously looked at QB anime and how it fits within its franchise, but people loooove to take QB anime out of that context and try to fit it into a greater whole.
@omo
If iyashikei is a Type B thing, then it’s the sort of Type B thing that Type A fans can readily enjoy, at least moreso than most other Type B things. I see myself as massively inclined towards Type A, but iyashikei is consistently one of my favourite genres.
And, yes, I’m treating this is a simplistic model, so I realize there’s at least a level between this and reality. But sometimes simplistic models are a really good tool for understanding the basics of a situation.
There is another way to paraphrase that, and it’s captured in this cliche I often abuse: “whatever floats your boat.” The more I think about what is moe, the more I realize that it’s just a feeling. Any healthy human being can experience a wide variety of feelings, and that includes moe. The thing we have to recognize is that what is moe for one person can be different than what is moe for another person.
In that sense, you’re just receptive to that iyashikei emotional trigger. As in, you’re moe for that. And I’m sure a class of type A fans would find that to be the case. The more stereotypical type A fan would probably fall asleep and not watch any iyashikei anime.
The funny thing about it is that describing what one likes in that terms will probably raise a lot more ire, even if it’s the truth. :P
Yes. It could be fairly said that a lot of moe haters are just hating things they don’t like, not because it’s moe.