Otakon 2008 Wrap-Up: Industry x Fansubs
There are some anime fans who are all jittery about the state of the anime industry. I think that’s not an unwarranted approach to the reality of today. Otakon this year offered a chance to bring some industry folks along with fansubbers to talk about exactly this, in terms of how fansubbing affects sales and fan culture. Or maybe it is the other way around?
The round-table discussion is one that is historically a little taboo between the competing interests between the fans and what they want versus the rights and economic interests of the commercial side of things. The legitimacy clashes with the illegitimacy but reverence is paid to those who, at one point, affected the nature of fandom that is within most American anime fans. Appropriately the panel is focused on such issues regarding the impact of fansubbed anime on the actual and potential sales of different interests of the companies.
The format of the panel was mostly, heh, what I would’ve done at my aborted blogging panel. The bulk of the time was spent going through about 9 different questions addressed to the panelists. Q&A lasted for only a few questions before we ran out of time. As you can imagine, the nature of the panel depends greatly on the fansubbers and the industry people at the panel.
As opposed to just listing who’s on the panel, it’s more interesting to list where they are coming from.
1. The Media Blaster guys: old and weary veterans of the industry. Sells porn for much of their profit; fans since way back. Targets niches like porn and, heh, Simoun.
2. The Funimation guy: newer into the market, deals with the bigger vision. Does new fangled technological stuff with big/popular licenses. Got numbers.
3. Dattebayo: … people who fansub Naruto and the ultra-ultra-popular stuff.
4. Live-Evil : older school fansubbers, plays more by the book.
5. Shinsen subs: Your average digisubber but with a longer history.
Before I go deeper into the panel I think I should post a couple pictures to describe what I think highlights the key point that I’ve repeatedly tried to make on my own blog. Except now it’s coincidentally memorialized by a similar message that is totally non-sequitor-ish, yet also so fitting.
A. This is a picture of the “State of the industry” panel at Otakon. It was an industry panel Funimation threw together the morning after the Industry/Fansub panel. Funimation had a couple guys going off with their pro-fan PR. It’s not exactly a surprise that they need to reach out to the ‘fans’ with inheriting Geneon and ARM/Sojitz’s titles. It is a shift from their traditional “what sells well” strategy but they’re rising up to the challenge.
B. This is a picture of Tofu-sensei from Tofu-sensei’s party on Saturday night. Tofu-sensei is the guy who moderated and organized the Fansub/Industry panel.
I prefer B over A, IMO.
And by the way, the Fansub/Industry panel did manage to fill up the same room the “State of the Industry” panel was in. I tried to get a picture but, well, there was this technical difficulty which sucked big time. So drunken Tofu it is.
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Chronologically I can go through the Q&A’s, but I think it’s better to just address what I thought was note-worthy.
1. Companies like Media Blaster have very different interests than companies like Funimation if you get into the nitty gritty. In essence, a person who buys, oh, I don’t know, Gunparade March, is not likely the same person who buys Ouran Host Club (that said I would buy both…). However, both MB and Funi are probably printing money with titles like Dragon Ball Z and Bible Black. They do some things differently, but I can’t imagine either title to be not lucrative. And it’s that sort of thing that keeps these companies afloat today even when the economic cconditions are not exactly sunshines and rainbows.
2. Piracy or fansubbing or whatever of, say, Naruto, actually doesn’t affect companies like Media Blaster. This is one part of a running theme through out the panel–even if the R1 publishers are all affected by fansubbing, they are not on the same boat together in a way. In fact the crowd cracked up when one of the MB guys openly admittedjoked to watching fansubs of Funi shows and has no problems with any of us doing the same. This is nigh ironic in a way because it begins to highlight the nature of fansubbing and the effect it has on sales is not something that can be modeled one way. Or maybe even two ways.
3. At one point, John Sirabella went into “old man” mode and started to crack some Dattebayo whippersnappers. That’s as close to drama as it gets for the night I thought. But he does paint the basic picture coming from old school fans who actually are not stupid/ignorant about the state of the industry. I am definitely biased towards him as my own experience tend to mirror his, but to paraphrase, there are two kinds of markets. There’s the collectors, who are older and have the purchasing power; and then there’s the kids who go to cons in cosplay (why were there so many girls cosplaying as guys this year at Otakon?) with their bf/gf/bff/mom and have $15 in the pocket, and that’s going towards gas, not anime. Accordingly, collectors generally do not buy Naruto; in fact they generally do not buy any one title, but a wide variety of stuff. Just think of the special interest crowd that’s propping up the shoujo/yuri/yaoi releases. It’s coming out more in the US now because it sells well relative to how much it cost to produce/market it. It coasts on scanlations and fansubs, instead of competing with it.
Earlier I mentioned that it is ironic to laugh at fansubs when your market is the small, niche one that is more likely to be impacted by fansubbing’s displacement effect. But in reality when you are selling with higher margins to a very niche market that has that collector’s mentality, it is relatively protected from the effects of fansubs; at least the impact is predictable. A lot of us who argues the fansubber’s displacement effect is balanced from its marketing effect because we buy what we watch fansubbed probably falls into this category. In other words, we’re really outside of the equation when we’re arguing about a model of seeing the impact of fansubs that applies to shows like Naruto. (Which, I think, is different compared to shows like Code Geass to shows like FLCL to shows like Shuffle to shows like Simoun.)
Speaking of which, does any of you remember of going to cons with no girls at it? I thought that was a good line.
4. To me, and I don’t keep taps on the never-ending Dattebayo drama/self-culture so I don’t know for sure, a lot of what they said are quite suspicious, borderlining entirely bullcrap. Like, always comply with C&D? Really? The one guy was quoting some survey they did with visitors on their site, and we were like wwwww. Srsly?
5. The Funi guy, Lance Heiskell, definitely took the opportunity and gave a soft PR pitch. A while ago I wrote a post on RightStuf’s Dark Lord and I think Heiskell was doing something similar here. His efforts were admirable but when you throw buzz words like “creator’s rights” it just makes me chuckle.
6. Another small irony I found is the overall displeasure about streaming sites. I suppose it is a matter of control, but all the fansubbers on the panel did not like seeing their fansubs on youtube. Dattebayo actually issues takedown notices to youtube! That’s just amusing. The issue with control is one that fansubbers always had to struggle with since the beginning (and appropriately Sirabella mentioned S. Badric for good lulz, although on an unrelated topic) and the reality is that once the file is distributed, it’s out of people’s hands. It seems Heiskell didn’t realize this in term of IRC distribution and the Live-Evil/Shinsen guys cleared this up for him.
7. I think Lance Heiskell really thought about 0-day distribution, or as I say it, day-date distribution as you see with the like of Gonzo’s streaming efforts. He laundry listed what has to be done to get it to happen, but the various obstacles there are nothing we didn’t know before. I think Heiskell also listed some other things, like where to download anime. Not like we need any help with that amirite…
Sirabella chimed in also on the whole VOD thing, and obviously to him it’s not going to be the “solution” because far most of the money of the “industry” comes from home video sales, and this industry, as I see it from Sirabella’s perspective, the collectors who don’t really want disposable entertainment but want archival quality stuff.
8. Sirabella made a comment, perhaps to the benefit of Tofu-sensei, that this discussion is incomplete until we can get a retailer to the table. If a Best Buy guy (or someone like RightStuf/Animenation) was there to give us the real numbers and trends from the trenches, we can get a better picture. I hope we get something like this next year.
9. I think the crowd cheered (I sure did) when the guy from MB talked about “lol karaoke subs” and how he finds it retarded to see on fansubs. Srsly. This is a topic that gets repeated every year at Otakon’s fansub panel I think. So just stop doing it already.
10. Lance Heiskell did say one thing important–there’s no reason to be so hostile. Everywhere I go online when this topic comes up, some people are all up in arms one way or another. I think that is just stupid and they’re not helping. To people like Sirabella, fansubbing has been around since forever, and his business has to live with it since its conception. It’s not like he went into it blind either; he’s as into fansubbing as anyone way back when. But he deals with it; reap what rewards it gives you and minimize its impact to your bottom line. I guess to some that means watch fansubs of other companies’ anime so you can live with your low salary? :)
To put this TL;DR post to rest, I think the work is cut out for us. I just hope we’re not too late. I know a lot of fans online are still stuck on this “industry v. fansubs” mentality when it ought to be “industry x fansubs” if you truly want to save the industry. Maybe they’re just mistaken or ignorant, but that’s just no good. We are dirty otaku, right? Not some high rolling Wall St. werewolves trying to salvage our sinking portfolios, who can only manipulate the law to change human behavior. We use RISING HEARTS and BURNING SPIRIT?
If you want some detailed notes, hit up THAT Anime Blog and click on the “show” widget at the appropriate section. He doesn’t have everything but it’s got the meat of it, including the detail list of panelists.
See, THIS is what I was hoping for at the one I went to at AnimeNext. Nuance! Case-by-case facts! Avoiding straw mans!
Except Anime Next attendees are stupid faggots. Hey let’s discuss this over lunch tomorrow lols
This panel would have been interesting, if it had better people on it. Dattebayo, Funimation marketing guy, and GipFace just doesn’t cut it. Too boring.
It has potential with more fansubbers (that would talk more) like the Live-Evil guy and a commercial translator or two with a Mike Toole-style personality. I was joking around earlier that Mandoric, rabidkimba, and MrVacBob would be far more compelling panelists here. In addition, there needs to be actual debate over talking point discussion, but that was likely also a panelist issue.
“I know a lot of fans online are still stuck on this “industry v. fansubs” mentality when it ought to be “industry x fansubs” if you truly want to save the industry.”
QFT
Conflict is expensive.
Link, well, they did invite me, but work kept me from coming to Otakon this year. And Mando was busy with the Touhou panel… But then we’d have adjourned the panel to the nearest bar when it was over. I owe him two beers for something or other. ;p
You don’t want it descending into a debate, though. Keep in mind that half the panel probably has a good legal claim against someone on the other half; you really don’t want to put these guys in a situation where they’re going to piss each other off.
>3
I’m flattered.
I didn’t get the chance to make this panel, which is probably for the best as DB made a big fat loaded question target, but it does seem like the panelist selection was a problem. Looking over the commentary:
* Needs a few individual freelancers on board, especially ex-fansubbers who made the jump to the industry, who will both have a better perspective (as Sirabella seemed to, though he was there specifically from MB) and be less inclined to have a grudge against any particular fansubber.
* DB was really, really a horrible choice; they can’t really add anything others can’t besides “anime wants to be free!” and “please don’t have us led out of the panel room in handcuffs!” It’s the equivalent of inviting, say, Odex on the industry side in terms of poisoning the dialog. In other terms of fansubber selection, as much as it makes sense to have big names for each general type of subber, unquestioned expertise on pulling down video from Share and slapping a TL on doesn’t necessarily translate into understanding the industry.
* There are sales numbers out there, and at least most of the majors get them—subscriptions are extremely expensive, and leaks are dealt with incredibly harshly, though, which is why we only get occasional numbers when someone gets fired. Retailer participation is only necessary in terms of Best Buy or TRSI, say, being able to freely decide to give out their own data.
The realization that, at least for the niche, anime is a collector good both for official distributors who don’t need to chase the lost “sell ten thousand copies at the mass-market $20 each” glory days and fansubbers who don’t need to get so damn serious is a great one, though, and even with its glitches I hope more people come around to it.
It’s nice to see people being on the same page as yourself, but right now all this industry talk is giving me a headache. At least it’s comforting to know that after this painful year of listening and studying different theories about the market I can say I finally have it down. Now all I need is some capital and I can start selling anime. =)
It was great to see that there was no bloodshed (though it was great how everyone seemed to be jokingly ragging on Heiskill and FUNimation), as well as how it seems that both sides do seem to realize that it’s not an us vs. them mentality. What I’m wondering is if the fans are able to realize this as well. Which is why I get annoyed when some people become pundits about the entire thing. Maybe more of that occurs in the future. It was a little productive. Nothing too ground-breaking (save for maybe BLU-RAY), but the sides got to understand each other a little bit more.
And that warms my heart a little. :3
I’m not sure if I’ll be able to do a good short review on the “State of the
FUNimationIndustry” panel, but I’ll try. :PTo me, Heiskell may or may not have an agenda just like Sirabella, but Sirabella comes off like any other old timer fan where as Heiskill seemed more like a corporate tool. I’m not saying he is, but that’s how it sort of feels like. At least that’s my perception. It may just be I’m also getting old or something :3
Thanks for your comments Mandoric I did get to stop by your panel on Saturday morning even if just for 20 minutes.
As for ex-fansubbers, the other Media Blaster guy at the panel is an ex-fansubber. However I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a non-industry ex-fansubber who doesn’t have some kind of grudge against someone somehow ;)
As to why was DB there, I think you have to go back and think why there’s such a panel in the first place and who is the real audience. While I do think it is a secondary purpose to have some kind of “debate-like” discourse about some of the controversial matter that baits us to this panel, it isn’t really possible to just have a bunch of people who has massive fansub geek creds go at it given the format of the discussion. I do think the DB guys served their purpose to bring a more controversial and, sadly popular perspective to the panel. Despite how their perspective is the lols, the couple DB guys there were mostly professional about it and they can read the mood and go with the flow.
Believe it or not the three industry guys were pretty friendly besides a couple jabs from Sirabella and Heiskell. I think part of it is because Avatar is wrong–Dattebayo doesn’t sub anything from Funi or MB ;) And for the most part the only other offender there, Shinsen subs, plays by the book and was mostly quiet during the discussion.
As to the retailer, it’s Sirabella’s comment. I think one major issue that plagues productive discussion of this topic is just how we define the industry, and people can talk past each other because of this. From most R1 DVD publisher’s perspective, retail is probably the biggest part of the picture still and having someone who can fill in that gap completes the picture better.
Just for the record, Tofu-sensei did request the picture to be removed. I will probably replace it with an edited version later today.
It’s hard out here for an otaku pimp~
Are you speaking for yourself there? ;)
Well I think regardless of his reputation (and well, I’ve heard various things) he is doing everyone a service by pulling off this panel. I think this is definitely a step in the positive direction and maybe we can make this into some kind of tradition.
“Are you speaking for yourself there? ;)”
Pfft. I wish… Or on second thought, do I? :/
I think my favorite “There’s progress!” moment was when Heiskill realized how once others take the product out of the hands of fansub groups, it’s pretty much impossible to stop, and he said “I didn’t know that.”. That acknowledgment was the best part.
At least, I think that’s what he said that about~
I don’t think so. He’s the anti-piracy “director” guy as well, and he observes a bigger picture of the spread of piracy than most fansubbers, I imagine. I think at one previous AX panel he said that if one person has the copy and uploads it, it’ll remain in the system forever (something along those lines).
Oh, also this link may be useful to some people. It was a live transcript of the panel. The guy who did it missed out on a couple of things, no thanks to fast talking, but he got the important stuff down. Aaand, some folks will be torrenting a video if they’ll get ahold of the camera guy.
I’m guessing one of the bigger reasons the fansubbers don’t like to see their shows on streaming sites is because it’s easier to take a moral high ground if no one’s profiting from the fansub, Some may accept donations while others think that’s against their own principles, but youtube or CR or whoever is selling ads against the views of that sub and it gets a little less grey-area at that point. Issuing takedown notices to youtube is borderline retarded, or at least kind of ironic.
No surprise the American companies don’t seem enthused about 0-day streaming, but I don’t see why they can’t be part of the equation when it comes to putting those shows onto physical video to sell.
All in all, it sounds like this was… at least marginally productive? Far better than a single “industry tool” sitting there and having a one-sided conversation, I’d imagine. This sort of thing seems like what theBigN was talking about on my blog when he said a dialog should be opened.
I’m glad that Mandoric decided to show up at my Touhou panel and do his own business panel. This would have been less interesting, most likely. Maybe next year. :v
Yea Miha, I found that link a while ago too.
As to Lance’s knowledge of how fansubs get distributed, it’s definitely nowhere as comprehensive as what the fansubbers know. I mean, dur, they are the ones actually distributing the thing they made to be distributed? They have actual access to bot statistics and private distro sites and how distros are networked. Lance only has access to public ones. However you might be right that he might see things differently on a big picture sense that fansubbers don’t see. However that’s not because of lack of information.
otou-san: I understand why people don’t like streaming distribution of their fansubs, but at the same time it highlights what they take pride in (and I find it kind of funny). It’s the same reason why many fansubbers do not release their scripts. As for 0-day distribution possibilities for licensees, I recommend you take a look at the transcript as Lance details the hurdles he has to overcome.
[…] Panel begins. Omo and Maipeisu basically give the rundown, so I won’t. But thoughts: Do X-Box Live fans really […]
Yeah, of course they have bot and torrent stats, but that’s all they really have. Everything beyond that is unknown territory, because their files spread like wildfire, but the guy goes after all those other sites fansubbers don’t bother to think about. I’m an ex-fansubber, so I know the mindset.
If you read the panel transcript (or maybe it’s not highlighted in the transcript? I didn’t read the whole thing), you’d know that some fansubbers do care. But like you said, a lot of that is unknown territory, neither Lance nor anyone else can really know for sure how a file spreads once it gets out there. So it’s not that the information is not known to fansubbers generally that is the issue.
I think it’s just that no one really cares even if they do know.
You’re missing the point. I’m saying it’s the guy’s everyday job to take down stuff from all the sites he listed, and some more. I think fansubbers don’t even know half of those sites. Compared to that network, stats the fansubbers have on BT and bots aren’t especially relevant. I stand by my point, he deals with an incomparably bigger picture than fansubbers even care to imagine. They know the files spread beyond their reach, but that’s it.
I understand your point, but you exaggerate. Lance’s job is a lot more than to find out sites and send out C&Ds, so he only goes as far as it is practical. I agree that he probably has clearer picture from the aggregate but that’s only because most fansubbers don’t care to think about it, nor is it relevant if subbers from group A that’s not releasing show B would care to know how well show B is spreading. It’s not because no fansubbers knows the information.
Things like tracker statistics and page views are easy to get and curious people with the right expertise can find that stuff out in a few hours, for many sites Lance listed. That’s how Lance got his info in the first place.
Of course that data is easy to get, but you said “As to Lance’s knowledge of how fansubs get distributed, it’s definitely nowhere as comprehensive as what the fansubbers know.” which is flat-out wrong. In fact, he puts effort into being aware of what (most) fansubbers don’t care to investigate. After all, it’s his job. If we take the argument into the extreme, if iroffer bots are set to allow xdcc list in one form or the other, any leecher can get data about that bot’s usage.
Anyway, enough’s been said, moving along…
I guess I mean it by “not any one fansubber but their collective whole” and not your random fansubber. And I still think some individual fansubbers may know more than he does, who knows? At least, that’s the feeling I get. A lot of the stuff he knows are practical details that are useful for, say, sending out C&D and prioritize who gets the letter first. But there’s no way in hell he’d know key vital statistics like, for example, the number of copies of Naruto served each week just from DB’s primary distribution system. Thing is, I think all he knows is stuff we all know, just with all the gory details.
So, no, what I am saying is not extreme nor unreasonable, and probably is the case. I don’t know why it is his job matters in this discussion. Just because he is motivated to track down these numbers doesn’t give him access to numbers that are kept secret–I don’t think that is part of his job as much as the point behind it.
…and ANN’s video of the panel is up.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/fansubs-and-industry-panel
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