It’s Roast For Dinner
Hinano has a good roast going on over this post. I figured the issue can always use more attention. And as usual I’m taking her side because, well, she knows what she’s talking about than her subject as usual.
1. I think if we live in a perfect world, every ethical thing should be legal, and every legal thing should be ethical, too. But we don’t. It all comes down to this, really. How each of us finds a way through this kind of gray legal/ethical situation is totally up to each of us to decide. Greg decides to take his voice acting creds to cons and preach it, and I think despite my obvious disagreement it deserves some attention. It’s something people do have to think about.
2. Also, in a perfect world, people who are living their dreams should be able to sustain them–if you love to be a dub voice actor for Japanese cartoons, I hope you can make a living out of it. But making a living, as a general matter, is indifferent and irrelevant to what exactly that you do. Academy Awards winning playwright Diablo Cody used to strip for a living, but she has penned one of the most interesting piece of Hollywood cinema of 2007. And I think she’s making a living now just as she was during her dancing days. It’s an example, but thanks to things like copyright it’s also an example many people can follow (as in, living as a writer and not so much as a stripper, but w/e).
3. I take to heart, at least a bit, about the term hypocrisy that Scott used. I mean to him it may mean something, but I know to me it means something very different because there’s more at stake for me. It’s not only because of my professional responsibilities, but also it’s a subject area I am somewhat passionate about–my copyleftist leaning.
4. And here’s the rub: when it comes to new media (like fansubs), people really, really struggle to come to terms with it in a way they can handle. And it just happens that the US copyright law (as it’s most relevant in this context) is so convoluted that even most lawyers don’t really know it very well; we can’t look to the law for guidance. However, people are ingrained, at an early age, about theft. So the average layman can make a very simple argument/analogy about copyright with stealing.
5. The problem is that the theft analogy has a few serious flaws. It’s like saying you shouldn’t tell someone your secret because once you do it you will forget what it is as you have gave it away. Information multiply and it does not diminish like physical things; rather, it changes in value as it multiply. I’m not even saying the analogy is wrong. What is wrong is making decisions (see #1, above) based on that analogy instead of basing it on what is really happening. The theft analogy is a great way to convey how people feel when they are ripped off by bootleg, for example; but it’s mediocre at best for forming good law and public policy. It’s actually disastrous if you want to draft up a business model in the 21st century–in other words, you can’t make money thinking like that. Now of course the struggle of copyright reformers is to be able to communicate the paradigm shift in a simple way that laymans (ie. lawmakers on Capitol Hill) can understand.
6. Sadly, as the saying goes for politics, if you are explaining, you are losing. In that sense, it does stress on the point Hinano made about retards at anime cons, and how it’s not representative of the fandom at large. But the key is that Greg’s spiel is appropriately tuned for that kind of audience. It’s almost populist how he made fun of people online who may chew him out! Maybe Greg can make his panel thing simpler? Maybe take a cue from Lessig?
7. But really, as Author said, if you want to have a discussion based on reason, good policy, and civility, that is thorough and respectful, and inclusive of both American and international interest, don’t do it at a panel at AnimeNEXT. Maybe try that internet thing? Just make sure you use competent moderators on a good platform. Or better yet, do something hybrid; involve both panel, online, and other offline venues. Then finish it off with a research paper?
8. I wish someone could. But someone did mention about something like how Greg gave up a decent paying job to become a voice actor, so maybe doing something like that isn’t too crazy. Still, he’s really in no position to plead about his vested interest in the industry. And I’m not talking about the inherent bias–I don’t really care about that. I care about his plea about spending money in buying DVDs. First, let’s take a step back and think about it:
9. AnimeNEXT costs like, $35 to go on Saturday. That’s like 2-3 DVDs. Or 7 if you took one of those 5-a-pop sales we saw last month over at Rightstuf. So he’s really preaching to a group of people who would rather go to a crappy con and not spend that money on something better (like I did, heh. heh). For example, I’ve actually kept my budget written down for Otakon for the past ~9 years, so I know how many DVDs I could buy if I stayed home instead of partying it up in Baltimore as a part of this annual tradition of mine. It’s quite a bit. Probably enough to supply Jeff Lawson’s anime habit for a few years, and that is not adjusted for inflation. What’s more, I run on the cheap, too! Just imagine how 20,000+ people that have attended Otakon or AX for the past decade have spent on NOT buying anime DVDs but nonetheless spending money into this industry?
10. This is really the nail in the coffin as far as Greg’s lack of tact. Let’s just say that for every internet person he flamed at a con, he’s shooting down all those potential customers who probably don’t enjoy cons and would rather put that money where it counts–actual, physical goods. I mean if I didn’t go to 1-3 cons a year I can probably spend an extra $1000 on anime a year, easy. And guess what, who’s making that money? The same people who gave Greg the soapbox to preach from. Forget about Miyavi. The whole thing behind a lot of anime is a device to drive merchandising–selling copies of books and manga, toys and games, and gags and figures and hugpillows and whatever for the otaku. If anime companies aren’t cashing in on those, it’s not the fan’s fault, right? You ARE supporting the industry when you buy Nyan Furo, despite what Greg may be saying. You ARE supporting the industry when you learn of a new artist through an anime and consequently import stuff from that artist, because that’s why that artist got to be in that anime in the first place.
11. So once you boil it down, Greg’s spiel is pretty lame and very ben-dun in the sense that every other retard (including Y.T.) has said something totally not original, with the same broad brush and none the care for precision and the consequences of his action. Why should anyone react any differently?
12. And if you want cred? Unlike Scott I actually own 5cm on BRD. So this is not a matter of hypocrisy and where you spend your money–God knows how much money I’ve wasted on buying DVD or VHS or LD or DLC or whatever; and I wish I could spend less. This is a matter of not knowing what the hell you’re talking about. Greg would be much better off if he went around and not spread ignorance (as he really has no excuse if he’s going to play the industy insider card) and actually be respectful of the people he want to persuade. It’s easy to paint faceless fansub pirates as evil and those who agree with him as good, but it’s all too easy to fall into the same trap you set up for another as both groups of people are two sides of the same coin. It’s always a bad move to insult your potential clients.
13. Here’s something to think about: instead of talking about how fansubbing is harming companies, why doesn’t he talk about how fansubbing is harming the anime that come out today? People don’t really care about companies; they care about the show they like. And if you are going to say anime is going to go away people will just laugh at you; at least provide concrete evidence. Anecdotes are worthless. FWIW, it’s much more interesting to see how stock prices for GDH change based on the reception of Gonzo’s productions, because that stuff is easy to understand. It’s much harder to understand how propping up a dying method of distribution of mass media helps to bring Japanese animation to the next level. If all it took was for Gonzo to go neck deep into debt to produce a series like Tower of Druaga, then hells yea, keep on that downward spiral.
Keep in mind that prior to reading this minor blog drama, I had no idea who Greg Ayres was. It’s too funny that someone would “fight” against fansubs in the first place. Why not spend your time promoting the industry in aspects that matter? What he’s doing is the equivalent of a soldier killing his own brigade. We’re all fans here.
I’ll have to second the question of why he holds these panels at anime conventions in the first place. The vast majority of con-goers don’t have even the slightest impression of what copyright law is and how it does or doesn’t impact the fansubbing world. That most of his audience doesn’t know any better is probably why he holds these panels.
Why doesn’t he have a regular industry blog, a la Avatar, if he’s oh so adamant at expressing his flawed views? Oh wait, his insipid personality prevents Ayres from doing so.
I’m curious what Greg, or Scott, would suggest people do if they want to watch something without spending 20$ on it and buying it blind. Scott mentions that he just rents the movies from Netflixs now, but how is that any different than watching a fansub? Because the movie was paid for once? Because they bought multiple copies to rent out? It’s not like you’re paying to watch it. They’re sharing a limited copy, that wasn’t paid for each time, with a large mass of people. Isn’t that, exactly, what a fansub is? Someone had to pay for the TV that got the original RAW and then they shared that multiple times. Sure, it’s on a larger scale than renting, but it’s still same concept. If you rent a show, watch it, never buy it, you didn’t help or hurt the industry anymore than the person that watched the fansub: you did the exact same thing.
I don’t buy any less since I began watching fansubs, I probably buy more; since, after all, I now have a basis to evaluate a show and make a judgment before you ask me for my money. Generally, I’ll wait to see if it’ll get a domestic release if it’s something that I’m sure will get one (like, say, Code Geass), but I’ll go out of my way to obtain a copy from Japan if it’s something I don’t think has much shot. Now, I realize I’m in the minority on this, but that’s not other people’s fault. I go out of my way to do this because I like owning it and the companies support that. What they don’t support is the people who don’t want to buy DVDs or don’t want to wait years to purchase the same show. I don’t mind waiting, since I’ve already watched it, but I realize I’m rare in that. But, I don’t think it’s fair to blame fansubs for the problems of the Japanese industry to adapt.
Until Greg, or Scott, or anyone else comes up with a way to do that; it’s a pointless argument to have and a pointless thing to preach on. They’re just wasting everyone’s time, trying to avoid the real problem and, much like they blame the fansubs they dislike so much, hurting the industry in the long run.
THIS
OMO WE MUST GET TOGETHER AT MITSUWA MATSURI 2008 TO CELEBRATE THIS GLORIOUS VICTORY
Link: it’s pretty clear he goes to cons to tell people to buy stuff and not pirate anime. But only if he stuck to that simple message without trying to act as if he knows something? Maybe he does, but he sure isn’t saying what it is.
Vician: It’s not so simple. Netflix type renting does help things out more than not doing anything at all. But of course it isn’t like I can go out there and rent Tower of Druaga on netflix, so it’s rather limited in ways fansubs aren’t because it doesn’t address the time lag. I think it’s always good to rent if you feel comfortable about renting, and if it makes sense to you economically, so that I have no problems with. What I DO have problems with is with things like merchandising. I probably do more good for the anime industry in Japan by buying, say, the latest Macross Frontier single than renting a DVD off netflix whenever Macross Frontier comes out (if ever). And in that instance you’re not even buying anime.
When Jeff posted his note about how much he’d spent on DVDs I did a calculation of my own.
It turns out that fansubs aren’t displacing DVD purchases for me — I buy DVDs at the rate that I watch anime (this means that I have a lot of unwatched DVDs (mostly series that I watched in fansub form and have hopes of watching again), because I do watch fansubs).
I do think it’s somewhat amusing to have a dub actor complaining about fansubs. He should be worried about the non-existent fandub threat, surely? My own favored solution to the industry’s problems (fast US release of sub-only disks) would still put him out of work.
I think that the industry’s biggest enemy is their customers’ time. Spending an hour a day watching anime strikes me as being toward the heavy end of fandom. An hour a day is only 2.5 DVDs a week — say 2 a week, since sometimes you’ll go back and review a disk. That’s 100 DVDs a year — for above-average fans. Average fans aren’t going to have time for more than 20 disks a year, I would think (that’s four or five series a year).
How many fans would you have to have to support an industry, when the average fan buys 20 disks a year?
Well, if it takes selling 10,000 copies to make a disk profitable, and the industry is releasing 400 disks a year (I think it’s down from that), so about 200,000 fans. Roughly ten times the population of Otakon, or about one person in 1500 in the US. Hmm. Maybe.
Take another approach. Scarywater shows Macross Frontier having maybe 100,000 downloads. On the other hand Hantsuki (say), sees maybe 3000, and Zettai Shounen sees a surprising 25,000 (for the first half, only 10,000 for the second half). Hantsuki would probably be released on two disks (requiring 20,000 to be sold to break even); Zettai Shounen, a 26-episode series would require about 70-80,000 disks to be sold — and the drop-off in people loading the second half of the series is probably a tell-tale for what would happen to that series. Scarywater isn’t really putting a dent in the sales that Hantsuki would require, though maybe Zettai Shounen, and whoever licensed Macross Frontier might have a legitimate beef.
Between Hinano’s rage and Omo’s intellectuality, I don’t think Greg or his minions (Scott) have much of a chance!
@dm
Not only that, but when I was looking at the peers that I was connecting to while downloading an episode of Macross F, only about 1/3 of them were US/Canada. So the real number of potential customers is far lower than those BT download counts. Macross F might still get enough, but now those Hanbun Tsuki ga Noboru Sora’s of the world aren’t even REMOTELY close.
Talk about an epic fail preaching =/
Honestly, whatever it is that he’s fighting for, it seems punching thin-air to me, at least until they further improve their arguments and stand against this cause.
The insult at fansub-watching bloggers, however, was really uncalled for. I don’t see any harm when a blogger preaches and raves about a show, regardless of whether he/she watched it fansubbed or through “legal means”. It even increases the likelihood of prospective DVD buyers since they’re advertising the show, and for free (more often than not)!
My LiveJournal Post:
http://tyrenol.livejournal.com/113095.html
Tyrenol: LOL. I think you’re an okay guy, but you act like a nutso who’d climb on belltowers and shoot random people. Anyways.
dm: You and I are the rare kind of fans that is not really in Greg Ayres’s target audience. Because to us fansubs are not substitutes, but just another format to watch anime on; we do buy the series we think are worth buying at the end of the day even if it sits shrinkwrapped for a long time.
But yes, what fansubs did 20 years ago, it’s still doing now. The only difference is that we have this fat segment of fansubbing audience who doesn’t really need it anymore–all they’d watch is new Naruto and Bleach episodes. And I don’t think they belong with the same category of fansub viewers as most people who’d read this blog. Nor are they the ones nailed by Greg’s spiel.
I wouldn’t climb onto belltowers and shoot “random” people. I have a lot more class than that.
this reminds me, what happened to the otakon panel, omo? The blogging one? Still happening?
Nah, our panel app got turned down.
Heh, that’s a refreshing point about convention fees. I’ve made plans to attend last year’s Otakon, to meet with my fansubbing buddies mostly, but then I did some math: $600 for an airplane ticket from Europe, another $300-$500 for lodging and food, plus all the stuff I’d buy on convention grounds…. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just order a bunch of stuff online and double my growing goods collection? So I did the latter.
“Sadly, as the saying goes for politics, if you are explaining, you are losing.”
:(
I feel like I don’t understand the issue enough to post my two cents on it, but there does need to be some form of respect on both sides, if just to get people to listen and not turn themselves off. Maybe I just want things to sound less like punditry. :P
“Heh, that’s a refreshing point about convention fees.”
I’ve had my cathartic moment with cons long before I had my cathartic moment with fansubs :) But I’m a sentimental fairy so it’s easy for me to justify away the value of memories and fun times you spend doing anime stuff and giggling at different voice actresses and being amused by some pretty heady creator types. That’s on top of meeting fellow fans and rocking out to all kinds of concerts. Some of the memories I have had over the years are well worth the thousands of dollars I’ve spent going to those cons.
TBN: check out the post over at Paul, Mr. Britannia.
http://nakama-britannica.animeuknews.net/2008/07/02/fighting-against-fansubs-is-pointless/
Currently, I think you have a sizable group of anime fans who really can’t afford to purchase DVDs (which is understandable, of course), but due to their young age and internet saviness, know exactly where and how to obtain fansubs. I’m sure a small percentage go on to become anime “consumers” once purchasing DVDs becomes an affordable proposition, but if you’ve essentially survived on free anime for years, what impetus is there to suddenly start buying DVDs?
Honestly, if free anime vanished from the face of the earth, I suspect a lot of anime fans would just go off and find something else to do. The burgeoning growth of anime fandom overseas (which I believe was fed to some extent by the availability of free anime) didn’t translate into similar growth in the consumer market, and I think those licensors and distributors who banked their future on anime taking the world by storm (ADV, anyone?) are finally realizing they can no longer pay their bills. Fansubs are part of the problem, sure, but they’re not the core problem. The core problem is that the business simply ain’t there - not yet, at least - and I’m not sure there’s much that can be done about that for the time being.
As for preaching about how fansubs are destroying the anime industry (whether it’s true or not), isn’t it little more than tilting at windmills at this point?
I am behind TheBigN although I do not know much about this never ending war, so that does not make me quite convincing huh.
Western distributors don’t have the luxury of marketing the so called media mixes. They have home video to sell and not much else. This is one of the biggest points why anime isn’t a profitable business outside of Japan.
Jeff: what you have described applies to not just anime. Why would anyone buy House on DVD when it’s online, free and legal? Yet people still do, even if they do use youtube or Hulu or whatever. I’m not saying it is unique or isn’t unique to the anime situation, but I don’t see how fansubs make the situation unique compared to the challenges the entire home video industry face today.
Miha: Anime is a profitable business outside of Japan; or else Japanese producers won’t count on foreign licensing (as I hear, up to half of the expected revenue) when they start projects. The media mixes is a much more complex issue that’s worth discussing, but we don’t have to go that far. The success and growth of manga in the US is closely related to the domestic anime industry working as an incubator and forerunner. Plenty of anime out there are made to sell books, like I said.
The average House fan wouldn’t have the foggiest idea how or where to find episodes of the series online. I’d posit that the average anime fan, however, knows how and where to obtain fansubs. The average House fan can watch House legally and for free simply by making a date with his TV every Tuesday night. The average anime fan can’t watch anime legally and for free in the same fashion, with the exception of those few shows that get television runs.
In other words, fansubs have become an entrenched and institutionalized part of anime fandom in a way digital distribution has not (yet become) an entrenched and institutionalized part of House fandom. Or Law & Order fandom. Or Hollywood blockbuster fandom. I think anime fansubs are a tougher nut to crack, at least in the near term, and given how fragile and immature the overseas anime market is, they’re quite the adversary. So, in that sense, I think it is a unique situation - perhaps not a situation that’s unique to anime and anime alone, but unique from what the majority of the home video industry is facing, at least.
omo: I meant it’s not as profitable as it used to be. But I have to disagree on your assessment on foreign licensing. Since Western markets were never bigger than Japan’s, except when talking about a few select mainstream series, that already tells us a bit how important non-Japanese revenue streams are to Japanese. Furthermore, Gen Fukunaga already stated that upfront licensing fees are a thing of the past (or so he worded it); they have a relationship with GDH, one company that is very vocal about the piracy situation in the NA market, so we’re obviously important to them. But not all titles come from Gonzo/Bones/Ghibli or are mass-appeal hits. Also, most titles don’t get licensed anymore.
About manga: too bad anime distributors don’t handle manga distribution as well. It’s a common market where these companies should cooperate. So far only retailers are pushing forward that agenda. So yeah, more discussion on why media mixes aren’t happening.
I can vouch for Ty here.
And omo, you mean was. Animé was profitable outside of Japam.
And the murder bit? Yeah, I’m pretty sick of the whole issue. Plus I had the exact same tactic used on me. I’m still kinda sore at how that bugger forced his viewpoint on me.
Jeff: So the only saving grace here is that the average House fan is not, like, 16 years old? I don’t know if you know but first-worlders born in the 1990s, for the most part, are familiar with what to do and where to go online to get their fix. We’re talking about people who grew up with the web. And it’s much easier to get your House fix than any kind of anime fix. So if you phrase the issue as purely people’s behavior patterns, I see it as an inevitability.
The issue about fansubs as entrenched aspect of anime fandom makes sense. When we’re talking about pioneering new business methods it is often the mainstream media that take the hit, that buy out the startups and push the new ideas onto the radar of the mass consumer. The US anime industry lacks the wherewithal and it isn’t like Japan is up to the task either. It may very well be that digisubbing was the way of the future, about 10 years ago, but the business models of today still has no way to deal with it, to monetize it. I guess that’s what you are saying.
So from where I stand, I see how these woes people are yelling out today as temporary.
Miha: And anime is still can be profitable outside of Japan. Not to be confused with “anime companies are profitable” which is what you think I am saying. That is why you got $2M going into Kodansha’s announcement. Sure, yes, I know they’re talking about manga, but I think if one does well, the other has to do well (enough), too. I don’t want to point fingers but let’s just say that even Greg Ayres recognize that the different licensing/publishing companies all have a share of the blame.
I agree (and I didn’t mean to imply otherwise) that not all anime makes money oversea; plenty do not. I don’t think I even referred to the west specifically as even fewer titles seem to have any sort of appeal. However there is definitely money to be made. It’s just unfortunate that people are failing to do this.
DrmChsr0: Vouch? As in he’s a good shot or he’s not crazy?
Oh I read the post before, and it is indeed a good one. I guess I’m also looking at things through a “change is inevitable” viewpoint, but while people are trying to fight that change, though it seems futile, at least they can be a good sport while doing so. But I guess the question about that is, “why fight the change in the first place at all?”, which I extrapolate to “what’s the worst that can happen?”
And I would assume that the answer won’t be as bad as some of us like to think it would be. I also assume that the slippery slope might be a main rationale behind the anti-fansub kick that people like Greg talk about. But we know what happens when people assume. :P
The situation is obviously not dire enough if companies aren’t so eager to invest in change. Let’s sit back and wait a couple of years more. If the number of anime productions halves, then we’ll all start panicking.
Yeah yeah, shameless self-promotion, but while House not be the best example, the nerdier (Heroes, BSG) and younger (Daily Show) a show skews, the higher chance that they’ll both know how and get their stuff online.
I saw yesterday in one of the trades that the average TV watcher now is 50 years old. The average American, however is only 36.
“what’s the worst that can happen?”
I think it’s better asked “what has already happened because of it”? I think there are probably good reasons to believe fansubbing do cut into legit sales, as it replaces either the time people spend on paying activity or if it replaces the physical item. In fact people who actually think fansubs are superior than legit releases fall into this category, regardless if it’s true or not.
And that is why we need concrete evidence. No one is gonna buy your spiel if you don’t show us the money.
I don’t really care, though. And I think just because people “steal” it’s no way to run a proper business by accusing everyone who walks into your store that they are all thieves. At least catch them red-handed: that they are not buying an anime they would otherwise because they downloaded the fansub.
“If the number of anime productions halves, then we’ll all start panicking.”
I think there’s good reason to panic when people’s jobs are on the line; when animators are paid like dirt; attrition and a way to develop and retain talent; and there’s just a lot of reasons all around.
But I just don’t think the fans are really “up there” in terms of all the big reasons why things are tanking. Compared to other sorts of fans we are really a pretty good bunch I think.
“And that is why we need concrete evidence. ”
Why doesn’t it seem like anyone’s bothering to do that. And I wouldn’t do it because I’m too lazy. :P
There does seem to be more assuming out there about “what might be” than “what is”, so I’m liking the posts that people like you and Paul are making trying to go more into what the actual current state of affairs are. Because I don’t know, and at the moment I’m not too interested (and I’m too “busy”) in trying to dig this stuff up by myself. :3
“Why doesn’t it seem like anyone’s bothering to do that.”
Because for the most part, it’s beyond our ability. You need access to data that’s guarded by different companies. And like Greg we can only speak from our own anecdotal experiences.
After all arguments though:
I’d rather have Coleen Clinkenbeard, Caitlin Glass, Lucy “Hold On” Christian, Hillary Haas, Monica Rial, and Jamie Marchi tell me not to steal anime than Greg Ayers. Attractive women tend to do more good than oft-looking otaku.
Speaking of which: Ouran High’s Host Club will feature the old Funi crew in October. Yay!
Omo, er… but Greg isn’t speaking from his own anecdotal experiences. He’s seen that data. He can’t -share- it with you, and that hampers his case somewhat, but he is -not mistaken-. I’ll grant that he could make his case better - I have made that case better, for that matter. I myself am done tilting at that particular windmill.
Actually Greg IS speaking from his personal, anecdotal experiences. In fact he doesn’t say much about these numbers and how it affected his thoughts and his own spiel is full of anecdotes.
I expected he’s seen the same data that you do. I don’t think he’s mistaken either but, like I said, if you can’t share what persuades you, you can’t reasonably expect other people to be persuaded the same as you.
As a matter of perspective, even if the numbers come out, it isn’t going to shock and surprise people like me anyways. The point is how to make a buck and not stand on any particular moral high ground with a flawed analogy.
It’s quite the irony he’s speaking from the standpoint of someone who threw everything away to chase something that won’t last.
Especially since one can still fulfill his or her dreams by having better time management and a flexible employer.
Greg could have been kickass, instead he’s a washout.
Okay, sorry I missed this post when I was responding to everyone. Since you didn’t put “fansub” in the title, I didn’t pick up on it. But let me go through each one of your points.
1) Agreed.
2) Agreed, but Ayres’s work as a VA can never compare to Cody’s excellent script.
3) Saying one thing and doing another. I believe that stealing fansubs is disrespect to the industry, but I was still stealing fansubs out of a false sense of entitlement. That’s being hypocritical, in my opinion.
4) Steal (verb) - “take (another person’s property) without permission and without intending to return it” The Japanese companies do not give you permission to watch their shows without paying for it, and most of the time you download a fansub, you will never pay for it. Thus, it is stealing. Not borrowing, stealing.
5) Anime is created as a product. The artists create it with the intention of selling it to an audience.
6) No, it doesn’t represent that fandom at large. But at least the “retards” still have respect for people who provide them anime. At least the “retards” can socialize without hiding behind an avatar on the internet. That’s why I actually prefer the “retards” over any flaming internet personality.
7) Since when is anyone on the internet civil? See response to #6. Research is in the works, but from what I hear, certain companies who don’t want to make it public just how bad they’re actually doing in the market. But you don’t have to get numbers, just look at the anime news recently.
8) I don’t quite follow you… Maybe Ayres does have a vested interest in the industry, but I don’t. What’s my excuse for preaching the same thing that he’s preaching? I don’t make a dime from it.
9) If people are who attend cons are not spending money, then why is the dealer’s room so freaking popular? More then likely, the only DVDs and boxsets that most fansubbers will ever buy is at these cons. I don’t see how that’s possibly cannibalizing sales.
10) But DVDs and video sales are, or at least they used to be, the primary source of income for the anime industry. Yes, there is a difference between video, books, and other forms of merchandising. They’re all separate industries. The animation studio is not trying to sell books. While one may help promote the sales of others, every industry is only responsible for sustaining it’s own self.
11) Why does he have to be original to be an advocate? Al Gore may have invented the internet, but he’s not the first person to say that something was wrong with global warming.
12) You own 5cm on BD? Well la-di-freaking-da. I only just watched it at the NY International Children’s Festival a couple of months ago, which was a legitimate screening of the title and I did pay a $11 movie ticket for it. By the way, you can read my review of that screening on my website.
There’s no point in comparing anime DVD collections. If you watched a fansub and you didn’t pay for it, that’s bad. It doesn’t matter if you payed for some other series at some point in your life, you didn’t pay for this one. That’s the point.
He’s not insulting he potential clients because you all aren’t going to buy his stuff. The “retards” are his potential clients, and he’s not insulting them.
13) I kinda thought that anime and the industry went hand-and-hand. Unless the shows just magically create themselves without human intervention…
Having the American income stop coming in is going to be what it takes for the Japanese companies to finally realize the fansub problem and stop it at the source. It may involve all of them going under, who knows?
But isn’t that just disgusting? Isn’t that just pathetic how all of our greedy sense of entitlement is killing off the industry?
That’s why I will have no part of it. That’s why I’m going 100% legit. And when it all comes tumbling down, I’ll try not to say, “I told you so” too much. ;-)
Wow, so much misinformation. Where do I start?
well, for starter, I think we can say that I don’t think fansubbing is stealing and by “stealing fansubs” you mean just by engaging in the activity of making one and distributing it (I’m sure fansub groups don’t mind people downloading their fansubs without their permission; or rather they implicitly give permission). On the other hand you, like I said, decide to equate fansubs as a type of theft.
And the problem with that is fansubbing is not theft. Let’s say if I download a fansub of a show, watch it, and then buy the DVD because you found out about the show and support its eventual licensing? Is that stealing? I guess so according to you. But I guess that also means people like Greg would never have found his passion in life without being a thief to begin with. Companies like ADV would have never existed if people thought that way.
3) As an aside…do you know for sure? I know different creators have different takes on this. Japan faces similar issues when it comes to the doujinshi and things like Niconico, for example. It depends on how you frame the question and who you ask.
5) This is actually not true nowadays. Far majority of anime today are created as a form of promotion. Much like TV shows are made to sell ads and home videos, or cartoons are made to sell toys and merchandise (as in, well, anime). It’s a concept laymen do not understand very well unless they took the time to dig information up about it. I guess another example is like how sports stars make most of their money selling fame rather than being good at sports.
Do you know what an OVA is and why it’s revolutionary back in the 80s?
6) I have a ton of respect for people providing anime as creators and to some extent, producers and other behind-the-scene movers. I have much less respect for businessmen doing their publishing bicycle and not willing to change the way they do business and adopt to the times. You got to earn it. I guess that makes me a non “retard.” I realize the American publishers are really caught between a rock and a hard place, but I don’t think that includes Greg. He acts more like a victim who got bitter at the wrong people. Well, it’s not the only industry that’s suffering and I’d rather put $20/month worth of DVDs on my shelf than to spend the same $20 on netflix. The point about hypocrisy is thus: people are in the anime business to make money. They are not looking to flaunt ethical high grounds and I don’t really think they care about how ethical you are; maybe just enough to pay lip service and serve their own $$$ ends. I think I am a much better supporter of the industry if I spend more money supporting it, to put it simply. Now I might also be a huge “fansub stealer” but people cannot subsist on respect alone. That’s not even to really nail why I think fansubbing is not stealing in this context.
And quite frankly, I need fansubs to fuel my buying habits. I can definitely watch less anime, think less about anime, and buy less anime. But I don’t think that does anyone (except my wallet) any good.
7) The internet is an incredibly civil place. I’m sorry if you have not had the fortunes to enjoy yourself online in such environments. But like real life, it takes some streetwise and experience, maybe a guide or two and a natural respect for your fellow men and women. Which is why I said you do need the right social context and a forum to host such a thing.
8) You can believe however you wish. But reading your reasons, it’s like you’ve played exactly to my hands, and I’ve addressed every point already in the post. It’s the same problems people like Larry Lessig raised. You are really believing in a lie by thinking it’s stealing. I hoped you got to read the Lessig link; it beats out the TED talk you can read from RandomC.
http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008/07/05/focal-point-criminalizing-creativity/
Try trespassing instead of stealing for a change.
9, 10) My point here is that every discretionary spending not on anime DVDs on is cannibalizing sales. That include the hotel room, plane ticket, eating out, etc. I know this for a fact–people choose things like “otakon or $300 worth of DVDs” on an annual basis. Some choose both, but obviously the higher in tier of discretionary spending, there will be fewer of those people are there; inversely a lot of people can only afford to go to a few cons, if any at all, if they want to buy a lot of DVDs.
The point is thus: the group of people who hide behind their computers on the internet are, unlike the average con goer, the biggest spender for the anime industry in terms of DVD sales. I’m just guessing here, but the logic is simple. In fact a simple stroll on AoDVD forums would seem to confirm this.
11) Why does he has to be original? Because to many of old fans (like Greg, I guess), we’re done tilting this windmill. To be honest I read your original post as linked and I didn’t feel like replying. It was really, well, well-treaded and retarded. I respect your opinion but I guess we just disagree on that one fundamental thing; and like many people like you, you have a poor picture of how this industry works.
12) I singled out 5cm for a reason. You should do a search on my blog–I’ve been chasing this film. I saw it 3 times in theaters already :) And it’s a great BRD, as far as BRDs go. Please do buy it.
I don’t want to get into a comparison contest either. You seem like a new fan so it would be pretty mean for me to do.
And sorry, I think Greg would call me a retard and I do buy plenty of DVDs. So he is out of line. I don’t think he would do so out of the blue, but he is painting with a really wide brush without a good reason.
13) I think “killing off the industry” is a valid option, but any industry that would die just from this probably deserves to be killed.
Well, I don’t know if you follow indie animation, but maybe that is just the difference between an ignorant fan and someone who’s been around the block a few times. Speaking of 5cm, you know Hoshi no Koe didn’t “need” an industry to be produced, right?
Conceptually, is it even possible to “borrow” IP? I can’t wrap my head around this concept. I’m not even talking about fansubs and “stealing” here. Like if I wrote a book and gave omo permission to “borrow” the IP, is that even something that can get done?
In lawyer words, an exclusive license. Think of it as a lease on a piece of real estate.
Copyright is a right. When people apply the term steal to rights, it means a transfer and removal of said rights. However, what fansubs do is infringe. Just because I make/distribute fansubs doesn’t mean suddenly so-and-so company doesn’t have the rights to distribute it anymore. On the other hand if I sue Studio Nue and Kawamori Shoji saying I made Macross and they stole my show, for example, then yes, I’m accusing them as thieves.
I think you need to talk Scott’s language a little more, Omo. Or at least help him understand more of yours.
For example: “killing off the industry” is a valid option. What?
Well, no one frets much about the “death of the VHS industry”, do they?
I agree, in the sense that “killing the US anime industry” seems inevitable as Japan figures out how to take advantage of its properties (that might mean putting a little effort into figuring out digital distribution, with subtitles, quickly). I would not be surprised if, in ten years, “the US anime industry” was synonymous with iTunes and similar services (such as Amazon’s), serving to purvey subtitled goods from Japan, with practically no US involvement except a handful of Japanese lawyers visiting Apple headquarters in Cupertino from time to time.
Hmm. Apple could help things along by providing support for adding timed subtitle tracks to unsubbed videos in iTunes. Then companies could just put up unsubbed stuff in iTunes, and let people provide their own subtitle tracks.
Some might want to worry about the death of dubs — but that just might be a matter of consumer education. Fansubs clearly have no effect on the dub industry, except to the extent that sub sales subsidize dubs — but why should they? If sub customers can get what they want sooner and cheaper, why shouldn’t companies get a competitive advantage from feeding that demand? I’ll be interested to see how Bandai Entertainment fares with its dual release of sub-only Gurren Lagann followed a year later with a dubbed version (plus goodies). (One should note that the availability of a strong market in used goods will support Bandai in this — people will be able to sell their used sub-only disks when they buy their new dual-language disks, and that will help boost Bandai’s sales.)
“what fansubs do is infringe”. Scott — tie this in to Omo’s advice to try talking about “trespassing” instead of stealing. He’s pointing you to a better analogy.
Yeah, I could write like a book on this stuff.